One of the recent movement's in men's rights has been the movement to enact "choice for men." Men's activists cite Roe v. Wade as a turning point in reproductive rights for women, and since that point in US history, men have not received equal protection under the law, as guaranteed by the 14th Ammendment to the United States Constitution. Roe v. Wade gave additional reproductive rights to women, but no additional reproductive rights to men, thus greating unequal protection under the law.
Several proposals have been made as to methods of instituting choice for men. It should be noted that choice for men does not mean that men would have authority over women's right to choose. Quite the contrary. It would provide a method of recourse for men trapped or tricked into parenthood. Some varieties of choice for men would also give a method of "paper abortion" to a man. In other words, a man could state at any time within the first trimester that he has no desire to be a father to the child, and abdicates all of his rights as a father, as well as all of his responsibilities (including financial) to that child.
Read more here:
www.nas.com/c4m/
www.glennsacks.com/30_years_after.htm
Several proposals have been made as to methods of instituting choice for men. It should be noted that choice for men does not mean that men would have authority over women's right to choose. Quite the contrary. It would provide a method of recourse for men trapped or tricked into parenthood. Some varieties of choice for men would also give a method of "paper abortion" to a man. In other words, a man could state at any time within the first trimester that he has no desire to be a father to the child, and abdicates all of his rights as a father, as well as all of his responsibilities (including financial) to that child.
Read more here:
www.nas.com/c4m/
www.glennsacks.com/30_years_after.htm
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Re: Choice for Men
Sat, January 3, 2004 - 8:41 AMBingo! But it's more than providing men a way out who have trapped or ticked. It's a way for men not to be stuck with responsibility for women's bodies.
glyn
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Re: Choice for Men
Tue, April 27, 2004 - 8:38 AMAHA! I've mentioned this in other tribes, now I remember it was you who first brought this up.
I agree with this theory. -
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Re: Choice for Men
Tue, April 27, 2004 - 8:48 AMyeah, we have done this one on heated debate...
i completely agree with this. i think men should have a way to opt out, just as women do. i would not necessarily limit that to the first trimester. there has to be some kind of way for him to make a choice if the woman involved doesn't tell him (either is scared to or is deciding regarding abortion or just doesnt' know) until later.
mlove -
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Re: Choice for Men
Tue, April 27, 2004 - 9:36 AMThat's the only hitch. What if the woman DOESN'T tell?
But then again, I think the first trimester is fair. If he opts out later, she might be stuck having the baby.
It's a shame to have to bring legalities into everything, but if this is the road they're going down to...
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Unsu...
Re: Choice for Men
Tue, April 27, 2004 - 12:17 PMYes, some of the proposals grant an exception for such cases. In such cases, the proposed new law would allow him 90 days to make a decision from the time he is informed before any child support could be assessed.
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Re: Choice for Men
Thu, April 29, 2004 - 12:04 AMWhat about those of us that WANT the baby but she has decided to scrape it? I support pro-choice for sure and I stood by my girl (when I had one) through her choice but it was terribly hard for me because I had NO choice in the matter. WE made the baby, she chose to kill it. Is there anything that protects THIS aspect of the concept?
For the record, I'm grateful that I don't have a kid right now but I'm still sad that my chance to have one was nixed against my choice.
Trip -
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Re: Choice for Men
Thu, April 29, 2004 - 12:38 AMThis isn't part of the Choice for Men movement. The whole notion of Choice for Men is equality between the sexes with regards to reproduction under the law. Essentially, if we remove a woman's choice, then there's no reason or need for Choice for Men. The law is already balanced in that instance. Nobody gets to decide anything. It's decided by Daddy Gummint for you in that case.
One thing that some Choice for Men proposals allow for is for a man to sign a legal contract stating, "I will be the sole caretaker for the child, both physically and financially." This allows the prospective mother to know that she won't be expected to be the mother or to be financially responsible. Essentially, the child is "adopted" by the father, and the mother leaves the picture forever. Part of this contractual agreement includes a clause that says if she changes her mind about being physically present, it opens her to financial responsibility also. So, essentially, it would encourage more women to carry a child to term by ensuring their lack of responsibility for the child after birth.
Does that answer your question? -
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Re: Choice for Men
Thu, April 29, 2004 - 1:23 AMYes it answered my question. It actually answered it more clearly than I had actually formed it. Of course, answers beget more questions and this one has given me another.
What about the nine months the mother carries the child? Financial compensation? What's it worth to carry a baby? What about breast feeding?
I like your take on this issue better and that choice be open for both parties regarding responsibility but what if the mother signs the paper and then decides to start doing drugs or something euqally dangerous or damaging to the fetus? Is there anything that can be done or is it still entirely up to her until after birth? Would your paper require that she lead a healthful life until after she gives birth? Bearing in mind the sexist climate we live in she'll likely be able to change her mind a few times (or more) as the process goes along. There would have to be protections for that too in my opinion.
This is a messy topic.
I find it very interesting to actually consider being a single parent without the overhead of a female partner involved (no offense ladies but there are several reasons I view a relationship with a woman dangerous and threatening - see Evan's other posts for more clarification as I agree with much of what he outlines). But then... at the same time, the services that are available for women aren't nearly was warm to men in similar situations.
I have known solo fathers and the assistance systems simply do not want to help the men. The idea is that men are supposed to work, not raise a child and should we make the choice to raise a child we'd better be wealthy or have someone paying for it.
I'm not fishing for flames, just exploring the concept "out loud."
Trip -
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Re: Choice for Men
Thu, April 29, 2004 - 4:39 AMTrip asked: "I like your take on this issue better and that choice be open for both parties regarding responsibility but what if the mother signs the paper and then decides to start doing drugs or something euqally dangerous or damaging to the fetus?"
I believe the woman in this hypothetical scenario would be in violation of the law in most states. Isn't endangering the life of an unborn child illegal in most states these days? So I suppose they could take some kind of legal action against her to prevent her from harming the fetus, and to also bring her up on criminal charges. I know they've done this for crack babies.
Trip wrote: "Bearing in mind the sexist climate we live in she'll likely be able to change her mind a few times (or more) as the process goes along. There would have to be protections for that too in my opinion."
Breaking a contract (other than marriage) has consequences. You can end up in civil court, or sometimes even in criminal court.
Trip wrote: "I have known solo fathers and the assistance systems simply do not want to help the men. The idea is that men are supposed to work, not raise a child and should we make the choice to raise a child we'd better be wealthy or have someone paying for it."
Indeed. Many homeless programs (unrelated to child rearing, but a good example of sexism against men in public policy) are for women and or children, but very few are for men. I feed the homeless and clothe the homeless as part of the volunteer work I do with my men's team around Los Angeles, and I can tell you from experience, the overwhelming majority are men. And most of the women and children you do see out there are much healthier, better dressed, cleaner, and just less pathetic looking than most of the men. I've asked why while conversing with a few while serving in the sandwich line or the free clothing line. The answer I got: "there's programs for the kids and women to get lots of free stuff, but this is the ONLY place on the west side a MAN can get a pair of jeans."
Domestic violence shelters and support structures for men? So far as I'm aware, there are only a handful of programs in a handful of cities.
Solo fathers? Again, most of the support is on the web. And there's quite a bit of it on the web these days. Also, thanks to the father's rights movement and men like Glenn Sacks, the issues of single fathers and father's rights are getting a wider hearing in the press, and issues for single dads and for dads in the divorce courts are showing signs of progress.
Paternity fraud is now a crime in several states, for example. Governor Davis vetoed the legislation when it crossed his desk in California, but other states saw fit to enact these kinds of laws.
So there's hope for the father's rights movement and men's rights movement. It's taken longer to get off the ground than women's rights did, but the issues have begun to be heard by the government, and I take it as an encouraging sign. -
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Re: Choice for Men
Thu, April 29, 2004 - 9:43 AMthere are laws against doing illegal drugs. so a pregnant woman who does them should get whatever stupid penalties they do for that (i don't support the drug war nonsense so that's another question...) the very idea that anyone is going to try to tell a pregnant woman how she has to live is repulsive to me.
what, you're gonna lock her in a jail cell to be sure she doesn't drink alcohol? smoke a cigarette? go into a too-smokey room? exercise too much? go horseback riding or skydiving? then of course you may have to cattle prod her to make her exercise just enough. you gonna tell her she's not eating enough greens for the necessary vitamins for fetal development?
i think that mandating a woman's body is just akin to slavery. there should not be fetal endangerment laws. it IS still her body and she lives in it too.
i would also mention that many of the homeless and domestic violence and other poverty programs don't do much for childless women either. for many of them, the primary concern is for women with children. yes, i've talked to childless women who weren't able to get the grants and relocation assistance and whatnot to get away from DV situation. the bias seems to be more in favor of the women+kids package than specifically anti-male.
mlove -
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Re: Choice for Men
Fri, April 30, 2004 - 1:12 AMYour questions mlove are exactly where I was going or trying to go with my line of questions.
There have been rules upon rules sprouting up in a couple of my social groups and I keep asking, where does the governance of our community end and the responsibility of the individual begin?
I think standing behind the "drugs are illegal" statement is a touch thin for you based on the other things I've read that you've written. Alcohol is entirely legal but terribly damaging to a fetus.
At the same time I agree that mandating that she "do as prescribed" is rather creepy in nature. I would hope that anyone I ended up knocking up for a kid would be kind enough to allow me to be around for the nine months so I could help here and there. Still, there should be some responsibility placed on her for reasonable care as related to the whole development concept. In part I would think that the hypothetical contract would stand largely on the individual female's personal ethics. How ethical is she to actually follow through with her committment for the nine months...
My question about breast feeding wasn't addressed but is related. It's bigger than I had led on and more along the lines of post-birth interaction/care. I'm not sure how far that would have to go. Statistics have illustrated that breast feeding increases the immune systems and overall health of a developing person. As a person imagining having a kid I'd want absolutely the best of everything for my child.
I'm not suggesting mandating anything. I'm simply trying to figure out where the boundaries of an agreement would land. If she agrees to do something, where do her responsibilities begin and end? What kind of consequences should there be, we're talking fairly here, for her failure to follow through with what she voluntarily agreed to?
At this point, were I to find myself in a financial situation that would allow me to have a child I would put out a request for mothers and evaluate each applicant based on a few things that I think are important and I would HIRE her as my child's mother. The salary would be relative to my level of wealth but it would be on par with an actual professional salary (35k to 45k - that's $630,000 to $810,000 plus room and board for 18 years of guaranteed employment - fair?). This would have nothing to do with my child's shelter and food which would be on a separate account. Sadly I'm flat broke with little hope of actually amassing this level of great wealth so it'll have to be another life. But that's how I'd do it.
The pecking order for services goes in order of priority based on my personal observations from actually NEEDING services:
Women with children.
Children (but usually only to reunite them with their families or other hateful places that they ran from in the first place).
Women.
Youth.
Men.
Couples without children.
Gay couples (with or without children).
Trangendered (with or without children).
Mentally or physically disabled/ill.
Elderly (mostly because they lack the means of getting to the services to begin with).
Evan: Please let me know how I can start some services in my area. There have been several instances of the city/county of riverside shutting down services (namely the men's shelter) for reasons I haven't yet researched. I'm interested in seeing that reopened and/or additional services that help people equally in the order they show up for help until the resources are depleted. Feel free to contact me personally through Tribe and I'll get you the rest of my contact information.
TripSeven -
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Re: Choice for Men
Fri, April 30, 2004 - 3:05 AMTrip asked: "Please let me know how I can start some services in my area."
The National Coalition for Free Men has done work in this arena in the past. www.ncfm.org/ They mainly worked on establishing men's domestic violence shelters where they have been started, if I recall correctly.
As for starting an organization for homeless men, I wouldn't know where to begin. I participate with a local charity that provides food and clothing (against local laws requiring a licensed kitchen, I might add) to homeless men and women twice a month. There are private charities out there working with homeless men, but government programs often focus primarily or solely on women and children.
Here's what I've learned: if it doesn't exist, create it. How to? Just do it. Organize friends. Organize those who care. Be the leader for whatever cause you choose. I've organized several community projects on my own, and found plenty of people to participate through my men's organization.
For example, we found a local group that works with at-risk youth in East Los Angeles. They weren't seeking help so much, other than financial. We called them up and asked what they needed, and they talked about repairs and upgrades to their facility. So we got some men together: carpenters, painters, plumbers, electricians, and guys who just know how to use tools. We came to their facility and in one day we repaired the plumbing in two baths, stripped out the old paint in them, and repainted them. We tore up a bunch of old wood beams in the play area that were giving the kids splinters. We painted another room. We put up walls in an empty storage area so it could be utilized as another classroom. We swept the floors, painted the doors, repaired some doorknobs, replaced the broken lighting fixtures, etc. All this in one day. The manager was weeping when she thanked us. We'll be going back soon.
Another example a friend of mine started about a decade ago. He got some friends together (about 20 people) to clean up a nasty, trashy area of town. They went in with brooms, shovels and trash bags, and cleaned up a street and park area that were used as trash bins by the locals and were heavily tagged by gangs. They decided collectively to come back every other month until the problem was "fixed." They painted over the gang tags, cleaned, and planted new plants. At each meeting, more people showed up. When the crowd got to be about 100, the news cameras showed up and next a city council member. Next thing you know, the little community project had government funding. Today, that previously nasty area with gang activity is clean, pleasant, a nice place to bike, and gang/crime free.
One person can make a HUGE difference, and it's not as hard as you think. If you want to help the homeless guys, find 20 people who agree with you, pool your money, buy the food, prepare it, and hand out flyers telling them when and where you'll be handing it out. Note: if you don't have a license, prepare to be arrested. Also, the arrest is worth it. Then you're newsworthy, and the press will eat up your cause and paint the government as tyrannical for locking you up. Next time you run the event, there will be ten times the number of people wanting to help, and one of them may have a licensed kitchen at their disposal.
Good luck!
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Re: Choice for Men
Thu, April 29, 2004 - 6:45 AMAnd what recourse, legally, will there be for women tricked into having sex with a man, who then disvows the pregnancy? All very well and good to say the woman can have an abortion, but let's face it, abortions aren't pleasant.
Maybe require that the man have a kidney removed? -
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Unsu...
Re: Choice for Men
Thu, April 29, 2004 - 12:04 PMJLP asked: "And what recourse, legally, will there be for women tricked into having sex with a man, who then disvows the pregnancy? All very well and good to say the woman can have an abortion, but let's face it, abortions aren't pleasant."
The same recourse there is for a man in precisely the same situation. That's the point of the proposed law. Sure abortion isn't pleanant. Neither is paying child support for 18-22 years. -
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Re: Choice for Men
Thu, April 29, 2004 - 12:08 PMDude. I'd rather pay than go through an abortion.
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Unsu...
Re: Choice for Men
Thu, April 29, 2004 - 2:26 PMAnd I'd rather go through an abortion. So what?
I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's about equality under the law...not about equality of physical pain.
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Re: Choice for Men
Thu, September 23, 2004 - 5:30 PMThis is an excellent example of how the law, as well as decisions impacting both sexes, created provisions for unequal protection for men as for men in the area of reproduction.
This the the type of research, and factual commentary that should be debated in our legislative bodies, in the interest of change and equality for men.
All social change in America occurred through seeking equal rights and protection under law, from civil rights, womens rights, gay rights, etc. Fathers need to organize nationally, drop some of the ego stuff that goes on in the testosterone community, and recognize fathers rights issues are now as important as many equal rights issues that have helped to shape American history. -
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Re: Choice for Men
Wed, October 27, 2004 - 12:11 PMSo what about if a woman gets pregant, the man wants to have the baby and will take all responsibility for it, and she wants to abort? -
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Re: Choice for Men
Wed, October 27, 2004 - 12:51 PMIn every proposal of Choice for Men that I'm aware of, in this case she would have the abortion and he'd be SOL. -
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Re: Choice for Men
Wed, October 27, 2004 - 2:04 PMSo her rights trump his? Does that seem fair? -
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Re: Choice for Men
Wed, October 27, 2004 - 3:32 PMThe way I see it, the law amounts to this oft repeated slogan:
Her body her choice.
What choice for men does is create this separate yet equal law:
His body his choice.
1) If we allow women to choose and men not to, then we have this combination (which is the present state of affairs):
Her body her choice.
His body her choice.
2) If we allow men to choose and women not to, then we have:
Her body his choice.
His body his choice.
3) If we allow both men and women to choose, then we get:
Her body her choice.
His body his choice.
Essentially, choice for men would attempt to move us from the first category to the final category. This only seems fair and balanced to me. -
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Re: Choice for Men
Wed, October 27, 2004 - 4:36 PMI know what the law is. I thought you were about challenging laws that treat men unfairly. Not having any say over the life or death of your child is not an issue?
So you are concerned about having to pay for a child that you do not want but not concerned about having a child you do want not be born? -
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Re: Choice for Men
Wed, October 27, 2004 - 7:03 PM"So you are concerned about having to pay for a child that you do not want but not concerned about having a child you do want not be born?"
No, of course I'm concerned about that. I just don't think making a law that allows one person to have a choice regarding a medical procedure on another person sounds like any kind of good idea in any universe that I'd want to participate in.
That's why I'm in favor of choice for men. It would negate a woman's ability to choose FOR the man what happens as best as possible without going so far as to give him control over her body.
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Re: Choice for Men
Wed, October 27, 2004 - 4:37 PMor
We have other choices:
Her body her choice
His body his choice
the baby's body - ??? both? Neither?
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Re: Choice for Men
Wed, October 27, 2004 - 2:08 PM
Pretty much what I've seen as well.
Honestly I support choice for men as an equality issue stemming from freewill for ones own destiny.
If a woman doesn't want a child she should not have to have one, whether that be through abortion or adoption.
If a man doesn't want a child they should not be responsible for one whether that be through signing a waiver of rights and responsibilities or adoption.
Forcing a man to be responsible for a child for 18-21 years is not right. Forcing a woman to bear one for the man for 9 months because of the mans views is not right as well.
The freedom to pursue life, liberty and happiness is paramount to my viewpoints on this issue, and one of those ideals is that unless it is a direct danger to another person your rights shouldn't interfere with thier rights. -
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Re: Choice for Men
Tue, November 23, 2004 - 7:04 PMRight on!
Its being incosiderate of others' rights that should be outlawed! Man, woman, and child!
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Re: Choice for Men
Fri, January 6, 2006 - 11:58 PMHere's a new article about this issue:
On Making Fatherhood a Choice
January 5, 2006
by Paul C. Robbins, Ph.D.
Should men have the same reproductive rights as women?
In a recent column, feminist Ellen Goodman answers this question in the negative, writing "Some men protest that they are left with no rights and all the bills. But when push comes to shove, one of two people has to make the decision. Those decisions belong to the one who will bear the child." For Goodman, reproductive rights are only for humans with the right genitalia. (Such a position makes you wonder what she thinks about voting rights--but I digress.)
Iif the woman alone makes the decision to continue or not continue a pregnancy, should not the woman alone be held responsible for the consequences of her decision? Why should a man be held responsible for a decision he did not make? As former NOW President Karen DeCrow once opined, independent women making independent decisions should not expect men to finance those decisions.
In fact, men are becoming increasingly restive under a system of reproductive laws that gives them responsibilities without the concomitant rights.
Consider this: today a mother can unilaterally abort the child, place the child for adoption, or abandon the child in a "safe haven," all without the father's knowledge or consent. All these actions end the father's rights and responsibilities for the child, even if he wants the child.
If the mother can terminate a father's rights and responsibilities for a child without his knowledge or consent, should not a father be able to terminate his own parental rights and responsibilities? Reproductive rights for men would give men that option–sometimes called a "paper abortion"--in certain circumstances.
Further, a woman can force a man into fatherhood without his knowledge or consent. How? Here are four ways:
• If married, she can have a child by another man, but the law presumes her husband is the legal father, even if she divorces him and marries the biological father.
• A woman can name a man as the father in a default paternity judgment, and most states treat him as the legal father even if a later DNA test shows he's not the father.
• A woman can use the contents of a discarded condom to impregnate herself, even if the man had sex with another woman.
• A woman can say she's "on the pill"when she's not, inducing a man to have unprotected sex he believes will not result in a pregnancy.
If a woman does not consent to sex, she can file rape charges. If a man does not consent to fatherhood, he has no legal recourse–he pays mom or he goes to jail.
Still, men aren't dying from back alley abortions, are they? No, but they are being thrown into jail for failing to pay child support. A woman's decision to keep a child imposes on the father a legal obligation to support the child for 18 years in the amount dictated by the state or go to jail. For example, an underage boy cannot legally consent to sex, but if he has sex with an adult woman who has a child, he will be expected to pay his rapist support when he turns 18. If he fails to pay, he goes to jail.
If the state is going to jail men for failure to pay child support, it should also grant them the same reproductive rights it grants teenage girls.
One reason the state is reluctant to grant men the same rights it grants women is welfare. A single mother can easily become dependent on the state. The state's only remedy is to go after the father, so the states routinely round up dads and put them in jail. But a fundamental human and Constitutional right cannot be denied men so the state can afford to finance welfare–and there's little evidence to show jailing dads reduces welfare costs.
Others argue that if a man plays, he should pay. That argument made sense before birth control, Roe v Wade, unilateral placement of infants for adoption, and "safe-haven" abandonment. Today, men have as much right to mitigate the consequences of an unwanted pregnancy as women.
And how do reproductive rights for men affect women's rights? It extends them. Women would still have the same options they have under current law. If she keeps the child, it is her choice and her responsibility. That's fair. She would also have the option of giving up her rights and responsibilities to the father, who could then keep the child, place it for adoption, or abandon the child in a "safe haven."
The philosophy behind reproductive rights is that the individual, whether a man or a woman, has the fundamental right to make his or her own reproductive choices. Fatherhood, like motherhood, should be a choice, not a legal trap.
Paul C. Robbins, Ph.D.
