cutting

topic posted Tue, February 8, 2005 - 8:40 AM by  My Body is a...
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circumcision debate y'all might be interested in

bangalore.tribe.net/thread/a...86316ee4f
posted by:
My Body is a Temple
San Diego
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  • Unsu...
     

    Re: cutting

    Tue, February 8, 2005 - 11:42 AM
    this might not have to do with anything, but I don't understand how people accept the statement "removing the clitoris makes sex impossible to enjoy for women" as being true. I'm not a woman, but from my experience it's easy, and apparently feels better to stimulate areas inside... I'm not saying that the cercumsision is right or that it's acceptable, I'm just asking this as a side question for women who would know the answer
    • Re: cutting

      Tue, February 8, 2005 - 12:54 PM
      I'd probably change the statement to

      "removing the clitoris makes sex DIFFICULT to enjoy for women"

      I think for some women it may make it impossible - depends on how much of the clitoris is cut away.

      When you are "stimulating areas inside" you are stimulating the whole area, and the clitoris is part of the whole area.
      • Re: cutting

        Tue, February 8, 2005 - 1:06 PM
        <<When you are "stimulating areas inside" you are stimulating the whole area, and the clitoris is part of the whole area.>>

        And, technically speaking, the nervous tissue in the clitoris is part of the same nerve bundle as the g-spot. So, if you cut one part, it may damage the other part.

        Which is basically part of the argument against circumcision of men.

        Either way, I think if you're doing ANY surgery on an infant that does not have substantial evidence for being medically neccessary, then I would classify it as a violation of human rights. In the argument against circumcision, I see no need to go further that that - a human rights violation should be objection enough to warrant banning the practice.
        • Re: cutting

          Tue, February 8, 2005 - 10:12 PM
          Evan,

          So you propose banning a practice that some see as fulfilling a covenant with God?

          Just asking.
          • Re: cutting

            Tue, February 8, 2005 - 11:27 PM
            Yes.

            There are many blood rituals from around the world. Various cultures and religions practice a whole series of them.

            Two very common such blood rituals involve the cutting of the male and female genitals, commonly known as male circumcision and female circumcision, respectively.

            The ONLY blood ritual allowed by law to be performed on non-consenting children is the circumcision of males.

            I see no reason why this practice should be the SOLE legal exception to a system of law which bans all other such practices universally.

            I see that as primarily a violation of human rights, and secondarily as an issue of men's rights (in this case, of infant males). An issue of human rights for the same reasons that female circumcision and other bloodletting rituals are considered human rights abuses, and an issue of men's rights because we exclusively make an exception for such universal beliefs in the case of infant males.
      • Re: cutting

        Mon, February 21, 2005 - 5:53 PM
        How about "removing the woman's clitoris is horrible human mutilation and other issues are moot"?
        • Unsu...
           

          Re: cutting

          Tue, February 22, 2005 - 8:07 AM
          ... nevermind I'm posting the response to this in a different thread
          • Re: cutting

            Tue, March 8, 2005 - 4:43 PM
            Well, I am circumcised and my father wasn't (as he no longer uses a body). I am adopted and received my records some years ago back in '99 which had a detailed timeline and such. I found out I was not circumcised until I was almost 1. What the hell was that about?

            It is more than just an issue of non consensual. Firstly, if I were to have a son either naturally or adopted I would NOT have him circumcised. I don't believe in such.

            And granted I know someone mentioned it here because of religious reasons and would one want to ban it because of religion as well.

            It is allowed by the law and sadly I've heard of cases where hospitals are so used to doing it that they have circumcised withtout parent conscent.

            I am not against religious freedom, but yes it is a non-consensual aspect. And moreso it is something greater than such that a new being entering the world...something that is a part of you is taken away. If it were not necessary and irrelevant to have then our bodies would not have them. There is the added notion and discussion of body memory and to think that can be one of the first traumas given to a new soul inhabiting a body...and mind and body as well that remembers.

            It is by far and large a mutilation. Some time ago it was thought for cleaniness but if that were the case not to many Europeans would be still standing strong.

            It is interesting that most of my ex partners all were uncircumcised and don't have a preference and all that, but it just seems more natural to the body. I think if begin to look at it in the way of taking away a part of the body. For example, in science class I once had a teacher who said through evolution one thing that may disappear are earlobes as they don't serve a purpose. If the thought is that foreskin is not necessary and okay. But I doubt any parent would choose to cut off their child's earlobes why something so personal as foreskin.

            The religion issue and the Jewish faith...as I do have many Jewish friends...but either way Jewish Baptist and all....the first thing we are before we are black, white, yellow, or any belief system we are human and to think about the humanity against each other no matter how young. If anything even more so for the one's who can't speak just yet.
    • Re: cutting

      Tue, February 8, 2005 - 1:41 PM
      Because that's what they've been told. Everytime female genital mutilation is mentioned it is described as just that, mutilation, with a spotlight on the damage it does. You can talk til your blue in the face trying to convince a person that some forms of female circumcision are beneficial, some women have their clitoral hoods removed to expose their clitoris, it's not uncommon for the clitoral hood to prevent stimulation to the clitoris, making orgasm harder, and for some, impossible to achieve.
      To summarize "Social Conditioning"

      I just erased 3 paragraphs of rant about infant circumcision, I figure I'm pretty much preaching to the choir. I will post on the other tribe when I can manage to without my son practically going into siezure because I'm looking at something else.
      • Re: cutting

        Tue, February 8, 2005 - 3:00 PM
        Female genital mutilation is great - if you are an adult freely choosing to undergo it. So is male genital mutilation.
  • Re: cutting

    Tue, February 8, 2005 - 12:22 PM
    Ahhh...the "Heated Debate" tribe....

    They should rename it to the "Ignorant Asshole" tribe.

    I used to participate there all the time, but they wore me down. Just a bunch of negative-minded, uninformed, malcontented hunchbrains vs a minority of somewhat sane people.

    If you value your sanity, stay away from that tribe...at least that's my advice. I joined to reply to one post, thought better of it, and now I'm leaving again.
    • Unsu...
       

      Re: cutting

      Tue, February 8, 2005 - 12:47 PM
      I know what you mean, I was on there for a while too, but I just got tired of it. After a while it just becomes the same argument.
  • Re: cutting

    Tue, February 8, 2005 - 10:11 PM
    On male circumsision....There is a train of thought that states that an un-circumsised son of a father that is circumsised might encounter some emotional dificulties at being different that his father. Sexual identification, fitting in, self image, etc. It has been debated for a long time, and from both sides.

    Some men are so troubled at not matching their father's cut or un-cut status, that the undergo painfull reconstruction surgery as adults to rectify those wounds. Ouch.

    I had a son 10 yrs ago, and the prevailing thought at the time was that if the father is circumsised, the son gets circumsised. So, that is what we did. It remains to be discovered if my son feels I violated him or his rights by making that decision.

    I personaly do not feel my rights were violated when I was circumsised as an infant. Of course, being that my parents are Jewish, they did it for religious reasons. And to tell the truth, I like the way my penis looks without it's foreskin.


    On female circumsision, I will defer to the females on this board.

    The only thing I would add is that, the custom of female circumsision in Africa is done for cultural reasons, to fix it that the females wont enjoy sex, thus remain pure. ( a total failure in practice) But, it is done in such a way that it is a mutilation, and that it makes the vagina much more likely to tear durring intercourse. This tearing leads to bleeding, and has been cited as one of the main reasons that HIV is so rampant in many parts of Africa. There are many groups fighting to end this practice. It is not hard to see how this is a human rights violation issue.
    • Re: cutting

      Tue, February 8, 2005 - 11:34 PM
      <<There is a train of thought that states that an un-circumsised son of a father that is circumsised might encounter some emotional dificulties at being different that his father.>>

      And should we use the same argument in favor of female circumcision for the women in Africa that you cite later in your post?

      <<Some men are so troubled at not matching their father's cut or un-cut status, that the undergo painfull reconstruction surgery as adults to rectify those wounds. Ouch.>>

      Which they're welcome to do being that they have reached sufficient age to be considered CONSENTING ADULTS.

      <<I personaly do not feel my rights were violated when I was circumsised as an infant.>>

      Well, I do. I don't blame my parents. I blame primarily the medical community that puts profit ahead of ethics. My parents just did what the doctor said was the right and healtful thing to do...they didn't know any better. I wish they'd researched it, but I don't blame them for what they did. In my opinion, the doctor was to blame for not doing everything in his power to convince them not to go through with it. What happened to the Hippocratic Oath to "do no harm?" Guess they throw it out the window if they can turn a buck.

      Regarding female circumcision: <<It is not hard to see how this is a human rights violation issue. >>

      So, why do you find it hard to see the practice done to males as ALSO a human rights issue?
      • Re: cutting

        Tue, February 8, 2005 - 11:55 PM
        All good points.

        I guess I don't like to look MY at circumsised penis as a symbol of a violated human right. I see my penis as a symbol of many other things, mostly positive :)

        One thing though..I am unclear on what harm is done by circumsision other than it being non-consentual.






        • Re: cutting

          Wed, February 9, 2005 - 12:38 AM
          <<I am unclear on what harm is done by circumsision other than it being non-consentual. >>

          Here are some good "jumping off points" for the answer to that question:

          losangeles.tribe.net/thread/...0285d8f3
          • Re: cutting

            Thu, February 10, 2005 - 11:11 PM
            Ah, my neglected child. If you're a parent you probably understand how I was TOTALLY blindsided by my inability to find the time to actually maintain that thread. I have tons more to add, but no time to actually get it down.

            I keep reminding myself, he's going to grow up and not want me anymore. It's not always enough to stave off frustration :D

            Bernie, or anyone, interested in more information, studies, and stuff feel free to send me a message whenever. I will make time to help any individual out. Even if it means a little less sleep.
    • Re: cutting

      Wed, February 9, 2005 - 9:35 AM
      Bernie -

      As for having different penises than their fathers - I've known many men who have been in that position and it didn't create a problem. They were told at a young age that either Dad had a surgery that they had not had, or vice versa, and then they went on their merry way.

      Plus, if our generation all stops circumsizing now, this generation of kids will mostly be uncut and we can just stop the practice altogether.
    • Re: cutting

      Sat, February 19, 2005 - 4:10 PM
      I have never read any studies that show a link as you mentioned. regardless of which father or son is in which state. Most young boys are more focused on the presence of pubic hair than they are foreskin. You'd be surprised what differences children will easily accept, and what reasons satisfy them. Most of the uncircumcised boys and men I know, make that all, stated it was no problem for them to be different. Same with the circumcised that were different from their fathers.

      Circumcision in America was actually started as a sexual hindrance as well. It was supposed to curb masturbation.

      There really is no clear line between male and female circumcision and it's totally unnecessary and unhealthy for both.

      While I have empathy for how hard it must be to deny a covenant, it just does not condone or justify violence or nonconsentual permanent bodily changes especially of such a delicate and personal area.

      It sounds to me like you're picking up on all sorts of justifications for banning female circ, but ignoring the similar ones for males.
      • Re: cutting

        Sat, February 19, 2005 - 5:37 PM
        I am assuming this was directed at me.......

        "It sounds to me like you're picking up on all sorts of justifications for banning female circ, but ignoring the similar ones for males."

        Yep, That seems about right. Not that it is RIGHT, or JUSTIFIED, but, that seems to be the way I am thinking. Yup.